The Attack & Defense of the Mail Order Bride Business (Part Two)
I would like to say that I am sorry for launching a personal attack on you, a total stranger. I have just heard so many horror stories about these kinds of things. But I did let my anger at these injustices get the better of me, and I should not have.
Amy apologizes for the personal attack; yet what injustice and horror stories is she referring to? It appears she is saying that foreign women from developing countries that marry American men are at risk. But she does not say what this risk is, why they are at risk, to what extent they are at risk or if the risk is any different than any American man or American woman would face being married. Amy does not factor in any evidence to justify her emotional outcry. Her anger is based on a false conclusion. That said, I do find your website extremely offensive and inflammatory in that you stereotype and degrade American women by saying that men can find "younger, more beautiful women than what is locally available" in Latin America.
This fact does not degrade American women. It speaks of the competitive advantage that American men have internationally due to qualities that foreign women appreciate and are often not accustomed to from the local men. What I believe you find "offensive" is American men selecting a foreign wife that you consider to be of lower caliber than American women. That statement does not speak very highly of your customers - it also stereotypes them (as shallow).
Why is it shallow to appreciate beauty and youth? You can claim beauty is superficial, but the reality is most of us want to be beautiful (women more so than men) and most men enjoy the company of beautiful looking women. If we want chocolate instead of broccoli you telling us that broccoli has more nutrition and substance than chocolate does not make us superficial for our selection of chocolate. It is ironic because you imply that American women place too much importance on money and personality, and then you appeal to the superficial and shallow aspects of your customers who are placing importance on age and physical appearance.
People do not consider youth and beauty as irrelevant as you do. At no time do I say this is all that men want and at no time does wanting a beautiful, young, foreign wife correlate to superficiality on their part. What you are doing is no different than calling someone shallow and superficial for playing paddle ball on the beach instead of chess in the den. Do these men seem any more noble than the American women (as you describe them) that they are trying to avoid?
I never said these men are trying to "avoid" American women. I am pronouncing that they have other alternatives to American women, an extension of their search horizon. I understand that these are marketing tactics and you must appeal to your customers. But relationships are not trade negotiations, where one party says: "o.k., I am bringing X beauty points to the table and Y personality points, what does that buy me?"
Every relationship is an exchange, and yes a form of negotiations is taking place. They may be exchanging your love and support for my love and support or any of a variety of role designations. What each party brings to the table may not be directly negotiated, but an evaluation is taking place on how a potential partner attributes meets your desires and needs. Yet none of this has anything to do with a "buy" and this decision making process goes on whether we are aware of it or not and it is a good way of determining if both are a good fit for the relationship. You say an American version of your wife would not be interested in you. What exactly does that mean?
I said she would not notice me. This means I would not catch the eye of an extremely beautiful American woman 18 years younger than me. What is an American "version" of your wife?
The short answer is a top of the line woman with super model looks in the prime of her youth with a college education. How do you qualify that statement?
I will quantify it for you a perfect 10. Does it mean that you are shallow and require a certain physical ideal woman whose arbitrary and fleeting beauty you desire? It means that I am normal and enjoy the beauty of attractive younger women. I don't expect the beauty of my wife to diminish in my eyes. Beauty is not "arbitrary" it is well defined in our society, but there is nothing wrong with an individuals arbitrary determination of beauty. While you like to throw out "shallow" I considered all the tangible and intangible qualities in the selection of my wife. If anyone is shallow maybe it is you. You appear to want to eliminate looks as a factor in choosing a partner because it is fleeting. You throw less into the mix than I do. So, how does that make you different from women who are after men for their money or power?
I have no objections to such women. They can set their criteria in any manner they so choose. I provide an avenue for men to counter such women. I am not trying to restrict anyone's selection of a spouse as you appear to be. It just seems so cynical when people view relationships this way. To use a really silly example, it is kind of like the fictional relationships depicted on "reality" t.v. Joe Millionaire wants a woman who is beautiful (his shallow criteria) and the women are looking for money (their shallow criteria). [I gather from all the hoopla about it that the woman who won was not actually in it for money, but who cares.] Anyway, the premise was such that he would get his beautiful woman, but that when she finds out he is not rich she will want nothing to do with him. I suppose that the intention of shows like this is to stereotype women as gold-diggers and men as shallow people seeking trophy wives. This just seems so cynical and jaded to me. I bring this up because that is the overall impression I get when looking at websites such as yours.
I don't see the cynicism you see. International Introductions exudes positivism and hope for discovering a different variety of woman that may be more suited for some men and the compatibility of their relationship. It is not cynical for two adults to determine the content and means for forming a relationship. It appears that your cynicism derives from the viewer and not by what is being viewed. And I guess what I'm saying is that maybe there are gold-digging women and shallow men in the world.
Men seeking beautiful wives are not shallow. If Albert Einstein wanted an attractive, young, beautiful foreign wife by your definition he would be shallow. And maybe they deserve each other when they end up together, and they don't mind what their relationships are based upon. (I can't imagine that they would actually be happy, but hey). And I feel like the general message of your website is to take the man's portion of that shallow relationship and do away with it. As though you are saying: "Hey you! Want a gorgeous wife but don't have the money to attract one? We have the solution!"
Your belief that wanting a gorgeous, foreign wife makes you shallow is wrong. But even if we accept your conclusion what is wrong with that? If I only want to watch cartoons instead of "better" television programming and you consider this shallow, fine. What's this have to do with your involvement and concern between two adults and the relationship they choose to be in? I know many, many beautiful American women who don't care about the finances of their significant others.
I accept that. And I also know many American men who look for more in a wife than physical appearance
This is the case for every man I know And before you think to correct me on this I am aware that beauty and age are not the only selling points of your introduction service, they are just important enough to be mentioned prominently on your main web page.
You should know by now that men are visual, which is why beauty and youth holds a prominent role for men. It is simply the way we are and there is nothing wrong with that. Calling men shallow for our nature is like calling a man a "plate" the word carries no negative concern or relevance to us. It does not make us feel ashamed or any less driven in using beauty as an important component in selecting a wife. I feel like you are catering to a clientele who are only capable of having shallow relationships.
I cater to all men you just happen to think men are shallow for being men And if that's how you want to make a buck, I guess that's good for you. But all the cynicism you are pandering to is just causing more cynicism to grow.
The cynicism is in your head. Cynicism is not derived from bringing a couple into happiness. There is also evidence of unfair bias against Colombian men mentioned in your website or your last correspondence, I can't remember where. But it says that these men are not desired by Colombian women because they drink and/or are unfaithful. I get that this is your angle; I mean you've got to put down American women and Colombian men to justify the need for your business.
I do not put down Colombian men any differently than a football player saying to another football player from another team that we are going to win because we believe we are the better football team. The quote you are referring to is from a Colombian woman. This is what many Colombian women think of Colombian men. I do not to create an "angle" when the reality is ample promotion for the business. The "need" is natural I can not create a need. You just do not like the fact of American men seeking beautiful foreign women who are eager to meet quality American men But I believe that people are people, no matter where they come from or what they look like or how much money they have.
"People are people" only in the broadest since. People are different and different places have different types of people and the difference that American men have are desired by many foreign women. Stereotyping people based on sex or appearance or culture is hurtful and destructive.
I apply generalization where fitting. But there is no content to your charges of "stereotyping", "pandering", "put down" "cynicism", "shallow" these are just strong words in an empty shell. I probably won't be surprised if you comb over my letter thoroughly and get out your hair splitting devices and over-analyze every last semantic or grammatical nuance of my e-mail. I am not gifted at the art of argument or even communication for that matter.
This is just an excuse for hiding behind sloppy reasoning and unsubstantiated concerns. You presented a case that was filled with falsehoods and you expect this to go unchallenged. I agree you have difficulty in the art of debate and communications. However, this is due to your faulty thinking; it would be impossible for anyone to logically defend your position regardless of how well they communicated. Instead you attack and avoid any questioning that would distinctly define your position and likely contradictions. I asked you 20 questions and you failed to answer one single question. Yes, why answer any question that would make you look foolish for your beliefs. Doesn't matter that I answered every one of your questions to do the same in return just doesn't come to mind even though I specifically requested that you do so so we could fully understand your position. I address only the overall impression I gleaned from your website - that I find it derogatory - and the documented abuses and anecdotal evidence that the mail order bride industry is a sketchy one.
Your "impression" was void of facts. Whether or not you agree with anything I have written, you must admit that one unkind turn deserves another. That's only fair right?
Yes. You describe American women in unkind terms, even saying that we all think we're the best or something like that.
I specifically said, "To attract the premium American woman (and they all think their premium) requires you to be at the top of your game." I would hardly call this as unkind this and the three other sentences directly or indirectly referencing American women on the website if anything is a praising. I find a strong self esteem, discriminating taste and complicated traits as positive features. I have made it very clear I do not care or need to insult American women to highlight other avenues for American men that may be to their liking. Why you object to men having this avenue is still unexplained. Then you show a picture of a table of young Colombian women "vying" for a customer's attention. And this is not degrading to the Colombian women?
I did not think it was degrading for me to be vying for my wife's attention and all the other women I pursued in the past. So why should it be any different for women to do the same. If anything it puts them in control of who they choose to seek. When I was in my 20's I had women pursuing me and I never thought less of them for this. In fact I found the brightest and more accomplished women generally did this. The Colombian women that have participated in these social gathering have found the experience to be fun, interesting and safe. Many of these women have never met an American man so what's wrong with them sharing a conversation with other women to see if there is a mutual interest in a man they agree to meet based on seeing his photo and profile? Having to vie for a male's attention?
So you must feel only men should have to vie for a woman's attention. This is typical leftist feminist thinking. They want everything balanced among the sexes even if it goes against nature unless the "equality" is not in their favor. Hey wait a minute, this is getting to look even more like a reality t.v. show every minute!
No Amy, reality follows the laws of nature you are trying to fictionalize a bad ending that is void of reality. So you perpetuate more negativity towards yourself and your service.
Now this is a far leap women vying for a man's attention perpetuates more negativity towards me and my services. Amy you have yet to validate one negativity let alone "more." You view of the world is tainted by your own cynical outlook. I feel positive about what I do and the women and men we introduce that get engaged feel positive about the method of their introductions and the outcome. But we should stop the picture and listen to your shouts of negativity. Does it occur to you that you should be out the picture? Mail order bride jokes are almost as prevalent as lawyer jokes. Come on guy, you know that!
I have never heard of one mail order bride joke. But I have heard many dumb blonde jokes and that has never stopped any guy I know from chasing a blond or discourage any woman from dyeing her hair blond. So what does mail order bride jokes have to do about anything? What aspect of life is not joked about? Are you saying one shouldn't be a lawyer because many people make lawyer jokes? Is this your logic? Viewing your website and others like it does not leave me with a positive impression about your business.
I don't have a positive impression of the other mail order brides websites either, but it is very lacking for you not to be able to distinguish the difference in mine. The next time I am with friends and we see a repugnant obnoxious male with a wedding band, would it be insensitive to crack a male order bride joke? Insensitive to laugh at one? Perhaps.
Again what does this have to do with anything? It appears you are the one "stereotyping" men that marry foreign women. But seeing your website has understandably not made me feel sympathetic towards your cause. Amy I am not asking for your sympathy or support just your non interference; and it is not I with the "cause." I am simply for men and women freely selecting who they will marry. You are the one that appears to have the "cause" against matrimonial freedom for adults. Instead of trying to increase understanding about your service, you seem to want to alienate American women. I suppose you would, seeing as how women do not use your service.
Amy I don't need non-interested parties to understand my services. I run an introduction marriage agency not a public service outlet. The men and women that use our introduction service "understand." Your objections have allowed others to understand the mindset and true intentions of those that share your frightening, interfering, and freedom restrictive opinion. You hide your true intentions, which is to limit men from marrying foreign women who want to marry them. You attack without cause or facts. You belittle men and women from choosing how they should meet and who they can marry. You prevented a fair exchange and defined understanding by disregarding every question I asked of you, which makes it impossible for me to continue with your one way discussion void of evidence, reason and courtesy.
This article was posted on September 23, 2005